Revisiting The "Rich" Argument

Isn't all this tax bracket nonsense just a new form of segregation as opposed to one nation? I can't find anyone in ANY tax bracket who isn't feeling this crisis, and the fear is really ramping up. Congratulations to all of you who have made sacrifices, had a plan, worked hard for some success. YOU REALLY EARNED IT and should be able to keep it. Many young people don't seem to think that's a requirement.

Once the Democrats eliminate income tax for 51% of Americans, they have won. . .

The opposite of a tax is a subsidy, so "tax the rich," means "subidize the poor." If the power to tax is the power to destroy, the power to subsidize is the power to create. By subsidizing the poor, we are encouraging that lifestyle and creating more of them, rewarding failure and encouraging even greater irresponsible behavior in the future. Now that the banks know they can be this irresponsible and the taxpayers will bail them out, next time they will go even step further. That's human nature. We have to think about the precedent this sets for the future. Will this create more problems down the road in the future than it solves today? America today is "Survival of the Unfittest."

Obama & congress are bailing out every idiot that couldn't make it so they won't fail. We failed and we took personal responsibility for it. No bankruptcy. We paid off every creditor. No help from the government and not even from friends or family. So here we sit poised to support others that gambled and lost. WHERE IS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY? I'm tired of this crap. I'm tired of congress - both parties but especially Pelosi and Reid, especially the Democrats (aka socialist workers party). Will it take a revolt to stop the madness? It sure looks like this is coming faster than I ever imagined it could. I'm ashamed to be an American any more. We stand for nothing, are afraid to talk plain and straight, get the hell beat out of us by the left if we object on rational grounds (emotion is their currency) and it seems so pointless any more. But it doesn't matter much because we won't be America much longer at this rate.

I had my own business for nearly 26 years, employed as many as 13 others. I missed pay checks to myself over and over to reinvest into the business. Taxes on the business income kept rising to the point I had to either go personally bankrupt or take the business smaller. I ended up cutting staff and then got hit with the double wammy of no employee but still having to pay for unemployment for the missing staff. Some one paid for a large order with a conterfit check. It was the last straw and I closed the business. I put 10 more people out of work. And all of this was before Obama's plan to screw the small business person. In this environment I wouldn't even consider going into or staying in business. ____I found a great job and worked almost 1100 hours of OT last year. Between my wife and I we are just getting healthy financially but are going to push the limit of income. This is after 25 years of scrsaping by. So just when we are finally able to put our kids thru college, max our 401Ks and look forward to retiring in a few years we rfun into this economy and the nationalization of our incomes. ________

1) None of you hooligans realize that you all may make 250,000 in one year- if you ever, ever are a success in buying a home intelligently (not soon) or running a business, or your parents pass and leave you a chunck. We are all chumps to be drained by gov, bank, insurance, business, and will be until we wake up, say F...No!

Brian, My husband and I are both physicians. We will now be one of the "rich" that is looking at a significant increase in taxes in the coming year. Why is it a crime that we make money? My husband and I have worked hard for everything we have. No one handed us our medical degrees. We come from working class families. We have spent many years in the poor house, going to school and training to be the professionals we are now. No one handed us anything. We are finally making some money and now the majority thinks we need to give a bigger portion of what we make to the government because we won't miss it. What is going to be the incentive in the future for people to train to become physcians? Love of our fellow man is not going to quite cover the realities of a demanding medical practice. We are also punching the numbers and I will probably not be practicing next year because with both of us working we end up in too high a tax bracket to justify all the extra work. I know many of my husband partners are making similar calculations and considering cutting back their hours of work. Maybe we won't have to worry about our incomes falling into the higher tax bracket because I am sure health care reform will make a point of lowering our income since we apparently don't deserve what we make anymore.

Really, at issue, is who are the wealthy? I make over $250,000, and am a physician. HOWEVER: I lived in squalor for 33 years to get here, I don't own my $500k home, and I have $200k of school debts, I have insurance expenses, and as an employee I get no tax deductions. I have high cash flow now, but I am not wealthy. My net worth is paltry. Yet, the richest and wealthiest of all, who never worked a hard day in their privileged lives, usually only pay their capital gains taxes on their filthy richness: 15%. Who's making out well here? You're talking about taxing the working man here. How about either #1 a flat tax that is fair to all, or #2 going after the filthy rich. If capital gains had a decent tax rate, we wouldn't need to have this discussion. By the way, Bush's capital gains tax break is really working well now, isn't it. How 'bout those Reaganomics. I've already had to drastically cut my spending, because now there's a bullseye on my wallet. REAL GOOD help for the recession...

Brian, instead of the Fair Tax; why not make this entirely more simple and accomplish the desired effect. Have a consumption tax. Eliminate ALL Suta, Futa, FICO, SS and all self employment taxes and everything else, child care deductions and all other deductions. In turn; place a tax on good purchased only raise it say 5% for National Revenue Tax. If you purchase it; pay the tax. Want to save; then save your money. The politicians raid each fund anyway so it makes no difference which one we actually intend for it to go; so this type of tax has several benefits. The first benefit is the elimination of people who pay NO taxes and it eliminates the underground economy. Each will pay their share by what they purchase. No one evades the taxes or fails to pay them. No one waits on tax rebates. IRS has much less to do. Also eliminates tax cheats.

It's all so relative and Brian is right. Those folks who live in expensive areas make salaries according to that area. If you live (or move) to ALABAMA or NEBRASKA, the salaries reflect the cost of living there. IN OTHER WORDS...you will find cheaper housing but you will also make lower wages. It's not rocket science. Obama is so out of touch. He made a few mil (from what I heard) from his books and I don't think he's ever held a real job in the private sector for any length of time, has he? I wonder where all that money is right now? It must not be in the stock market because he sure doesn't seem worried about it.

So the big O will raise taxes on those WORKING for their greater than $250K annual income and that amounts to 2% of all tax payers. I'm not exact here but don't they cover something like 80-90% of all income taxes collected? OK, now consider that the housing crisis was caused by roughly 5% of mortgages going into foreclosure. A small percentage of the population having a bad year(s) caused a lot of catastrophe. Has anyone on the Hill considered what might happen to revenues when those 2% of the tax payers have a bad year, or decide that the risk is no longer worth the reward? Or am I missing something here?

I saw that bit he pulled before congress attacking wall street. Where the president himself made money off the royalities of his own books. Is that hypercritical or what? and not to mention congress needs to get their spending act together.

No Corey, a job does not open, just another small business lost as socialism takes over. All workers are asked to live with less as the non-productive get more. A free market uses a carrot for motivation. Socialism, at some point, either has to allow for a poor and nonproductive population or start using a stick. As someone once said, eventually you run out of spending other people's money.

I keep hearing the "you can't buy a reasonable house for under $500k" in such and such an area. Well, then LIVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!! No one has closed Alabama or Nebraska to new residents. Then you can talk about CEO's and how their pay is set by Boards who almost exclusively are, wait for it... CEO's themselves who often run companies with board members who set their salary! John raises Jim's salary, and Jim raises John's salary. Now everyone is happy! Oh, wait, the stockholders and the working people are screwed, but they don't have a voice unless a non-CEO gains enough clout to call this to task. Of course, the CEO's will just go to another company. Thus, the only solution is a massive tax (~80%) on income (including capital gains, etc) than 100 times the average gross salary in the US. BTW, I know all the arguments on special capital gains rates (encouraging investment, not taxing for 20 years of gains at once, etc) and I frankly still prefer that all income is treated as income regardless of origin.

Gas taxes are also a tax on WORKING folks who are the ones driving to work every day. How many boomers out there will just give up and retire when Obama's income and energy taxes hit. After the shock of the stock market crash has set in, and expectations of lower standards of living after retirement have been accepted, many professionals out there will throw in the towel or at least drastically cut back on the hours/days they work. What the hell, might as well get some return from social security before it goes belly up too. My husband is already running the numbers.

Brian has hit the nail on the head. The under-the-radar tidal wave that's getting ready to hit next is this: Many of us, attorneys, managerial professionals, small businessmen, etc. generally take small salaries through the year and then depend on year-end bonuses. This method of generating personal income isn't limited to just those folks in the financial sector. In many cases, we have to use credit cards to get by till our year-end compensation kicks in. With the economy tanking, it wasn't just financial services folks that took a hit, we all took a hit too. And with the recent wave of credit card companies jacking up interest rates in the interest of " improving profitability on the account" , you are going to see more shutting off of spending period and this drying up of spending is only being seen this year -- 2009. At this time last year, we were relatively optimistic and were living as we had in prior years, but the close of 2008 brought the reality that some of us took pay cuts that were immense. If Obama is counting on us being the the $250,000 income households to pay for his programs, he's wrong already.

Brian, the comments you make here are a perfect argument for the FairTax and why it should replace the current income tax system. Dems THINK they will increase tax revenue by simply raising percentages on the rich. Actually, you may see a decline in tax revenue due to this because one thing the rich don't like is paying taxes. This will cause this income tax bracket to re-evaluate their profiles, meaning they my start deferring more money into 401K, invest in items that are more tax-friendly, etc. It won't accomplish what they want to. The FairTax is unavoidable. Everyone pays into it and broadens the tax base for all, thus increasing tax revenue. This should be the "stimulus" Americans talk about, not some stupid plan destined to fail.

The other point that always gets pushed aside is interest and incentive. A small business owner, (OK this all about me, but I think I speak for many), usually risks their life savings, goes late on personal bills to meet payroll, stomachs the fear of not getting paid and then not being able to make payments on obligations, all for the hope of creating a place to work that people enjoy and to pay one's self a salary that supports a comfortable lifestyle and some savings to secure one's future. I have no guarantees that I will ever make over $250,000. I do have a guarantee that I will be charged interest and late fees on every late bill (personal and office). The loans, interests and fees that are taken out need to be paid back. If the government takes the money before I get it, then I can't stay in business, people loose jobs and the community looses a service. I just had a patient schedule to see me from an hour away. Do you think she'll get down here and return home without filling up for gas, shopping at our Outlet malls or getting something to eat? If we loose the incentive to create small businesses expect the dominoes to tumble, as we see every time our fearless leader opens his pie hole. What most people do not understand is that at $250,000 my disposable income is comparable to someone making 50K for the next 5-10 years. (After school loans, deferred personal obligations and taxes are removed). So I find it a bit disconcerting that people who have greater disposable income than me get to vote on how much more I should pay in taxes but are fine amassing a majority to vote their own taxes down. If small business owners see their peers unable to recoup personal and financial investments, and small businesses are a major driving force in the economy then expect the economy to continue downward.