Rodriguez: The UAW Pensions Must Come Down

How asinine for workers to think that a company can continue to literally employ retired persons by continuing to pay them for work not done? Do people actually think the work they did in the past merits their continued payment from their last employer? Companies should not be involved in the retirement programs of employees other than possibly contributing funds to match during their time of employment

Truman, Housing valuations are so low now because of whatyou touched on. Mark to market.this is the biggest cause of all the housing mess and what has led to the lack of liquidity in the financials. that is mainly why banks cannot make loans at this time.I have a neighbor that has invested over 300 thousand in a home within the last 6 years. Just told me today the bank that has his mortgage notified him yesterday it's value is $165,000. My question to all of you is this: Where does all the value that a owner has lost go? Don't say it just disappears. Anyone have any ideas where it goes? I have an idea but just not able to put it together right now.

Wiseman, where did you get the figure of 80% retirement. I worked for 31 years and get less than 50% now as to what my wages were when I retired. I got about 35% when I retired.

Ron, Have you worked in an assembly plant? If you have you should know better than what you have just said. A 50 to 60 year old person who has worked for over 30 years is not physically able to keep up with the pace of the assembly lines.

maybe more fit for reading by everyone here... I observed a point today on FBN briefly from Mr. Sullivan that perhaps people are not buying cars because of their concern for job future, security, etc. I had not considered this but I think that is a significant factor in all of this. Lately I've been thinking that people borrowed when their homes gained magically in value, it was as if the home was a barrel of oil, just going from 90 to 100 to 120 to 135 - then you have people all of a sudden who are 135 experts going "Oh yeah, it's going to stay at 135 for 2 years" ? ? Anyway... I think people have borrowed against their homes when they 'seemed' to go up in value and I think the money owed on those HELOC's are working against them. Because their home is worth less now. I just saw today - 18% drop from last yaer on US homes. Now, I know that varies from California to Florida on down the list. I still think the HELOC loss though is killing people. Say you had a 300k home, then ? after everyone artificially inflated home prices like oil recently ? (yikes, oil is rebounding in proportion to how insanely high it went in my book, I wonder if housing will slide below actual value like oil is now in 2009 ? ) say you house is now at $380k. So, you and your wife borrow 50k off it HELOC. Perhaps this is that Mark to Market concept that comes in and says, if the smiths refi now, they refi at TODAY's house value of ? say - 300k. They STILL owe 50k! with pot. no job !

Years ago last I heard of pension issues, there was a case I think at one time where a buyout was offered. This seems to be the viable solution. Pass out a short introduction to Enron, Ken Laye, and maybe or maybe not ask why was Laye the #2 user of the Bush campaign jet in 2000 ? But let the UAW look over the Enron story. Then make an offer for buyout or bust. Here, 65% or 35% loss to you, here is your pension in one lump sum payout. Or whatever 'needs' to be. I think the pensions must be removed from the equation, they are muddling up the process of using these loan funds for other purposes. Or is that it, GM and Ford needs to sell these, then again, heh, sure wouldn't want to see just what GM and Ford ARE invested into... Sure hope it wasn't long on oil. What a strange dilemma that would be, a car company taken down by bad hedges on the base to make the fuel FOR the car. Hard to say, I still say no transparency seems evident with TARP, or any of this. Is it the Treasury can't or won't ? give up the information ? That's what I'd ask. Because branch one leads to more creative FIA legal work, branch two more aggressive legal work to Treasury. I just caught news today - said banks for the first time in 40 years ? something like that, maybe 20, are posting losses, apparently bad loans from 2003 + are still finding their way to smaller banks ? Losses on TOP of injection money. AND ? I read people are running to the Euro for safety over the dollar this week.

Before making cuts to pension checks and health care benefits, let's find out what EXACTLY is included in the broad term "pension benefits." Somehow, I think there might be stuff that can be trimmed there first.

Where is the GAO on TARP ? Where is the audit team ? TARP was done faster than Katrina support, and they KNEW that storm was coming. AIG was saved faster then Katrina support. I think front agencies like CountryWide were used to send out these ghost loans- get credit for them, and get out, or get bought. I think Paulson and Bush KNEW of the fallout coming and have taken opportunity to carve up the community roast beast in private. It seems if people care about TARP funds ? Why don't they fish upstream a bit and ask - how is it we allowed the be bullied by fear tactics to allow it ? Last time Iraq War was fear, Iraq's gonna git america, must remove it. Iran keeps cropping up on the Ollie North diatribe on Fox News Now it's fear that if AIG goes down - we all go down. Or Fear that if Lehman goes down ? oh wait - Lehman DID go down. You know what I think ? as to WHY Lehman was allowed to fail ? a failed corporation is a corporation that won't be investigated by the SEC. Lehman came down because saving it would have invited too many eyes onto it's magical leverage models. And of course, we wouldn't want to deregulate society with no laws right ? I mean, imagine no regulation, no laws ! Yeah, that's what THIS admin helped along following the prior admin. They said let's just all use our media outlets to say regulation is a bad thing, we'll never point out this is the same as going lawless. The only question I have is - WHAT SEC ?

The pensions are legally due to the workers by contract. So the auto makers must honor those pensions. If the auto makers can not- then there are no pensions short of anything acquired in a civil suit to follow likely class action by the UAW - but good luck getting money out of a dying company. I have no idea why people have problems with UAW pensions. That was all signed by both parties. No everyone has pensions, most people don't - so whether GM and Ford's privatized retirement attempt to better Social Securit worked there or not, no clue, but by contract, these workers are owed what's been promised. If the car corporations can not find the money to pay out these pensions ? I'd say that's unfortunate and like Enron- everyone loses. What's missing here is a piece I find missing elsewhere. Transparency on TARP funds. The problem is - we don't know if GM, GMAC, or Ford will take federal loans to pay off the pensions (I REALLY REALLY doubt it). Some people might have issue with that, but why would GM borrow just to take that money and give it to cover pensions and having no money left, driving the company into the ground. So, they WON'T be giving it to cover pensions, plus - I don't think they care. Save the company first, then the pensions ? Is that the issue ? The lack of transparency though on TARP funds, I mean, who is to say the TARP money would be used to cover pensions FIRST, and Chapter 7 or 11 ? I don't think GM or Ford would put the pensions of

The faulty Free Trade agreements are what brought us the Jobs Bank. It was an incentive for American companies to retain jobs here in good old USA but corporate America has been fascinated with huge returns and not what is in the best interests of average Americans hence what we have now. But back to the jobs bank not all were sitting around doing nothing I agree some units as with any organization had their problems but most were adhering to the agreement to place individuals helping communities and charities. What is not said by the rabid right news media is the Japanese transplants also have jobs programs these concepts started with them as lifetime employment created loyal workers.

UAW workers worked hard for their pension? I would completely disagree. The UAW has the auto companies by the nose, UAW employees can steal, not work, produce bad product and not get fired. Unions are a Marxist idea to begin with, completely do away with them and get this country working and producing good quality products again and we can take back the automotive industry. Let the UAW live, good bye auto industry. By the way, how about the UAW open THEIR books and lets see how much they are over paying their 30+ VP!

Its greed on the part of UAW and the corporations on the backs of Am consumer. Where else can you get paid 75% of your salary for setting around drinking beer and watching tv while not doing anything productive for the company, consumer, country. I do think the average American worker gets shit from there employers. We are lucky to get lunch breaks during the work day. Its called less than full time NO breaks sorry...no health care .. no excuses no time off. We work part time/ full time and get crap. So BUCK IT UP UAW welcome to what everyone else has been dealing with for decades while you sat around and drank beer on the backs of you fellow American workers :) Sorry but I don't feel sorry for you one bit....nor the automakers, either BAILOUTS ARE SOCIALISM for the chosen few.

As usual the domestics automakers get all the blame. Has anyone noticed that the foreign brands are suffering sales losses also. Can anyone here admit that our corrupt government has caused through no true leadership the last 20 years and a belief that free markets and so called free trade will enrich America. Well look around boys and girls the joke is on the stupid American that bought into the bulls**t of Wall Street. You thought you were going to retire off the factious gains of the criminals of finance. Though their lobbyists they have caused the financial meltdown while we toil over the years and buy their faulty financial mumbo jumbo 401Ks. Yes the overpaid shiny shoed with their houses in the Hamptons and their short holiday work weeks sold us all a pile of worthless dreams.

My wife worked 29 years and 3 months for GMAC. She did not belong to the UAW. She stayed with GMAC because of the promise of a pension and healthcare benefits. She moved from Biloxi, MS to New Orleans to Dallas when needed to keep from losing those things. After 29 years, whe got a retirement window with a reduced pension. If she hung on for 9 more months and her office closed, she might not be offered a position elsewhere and could have lost everything. She didn't gamble with it and took the early out, costing her about 1/3 of her pension (but it was better than 0). Some of her coworkers stayed to get their time in. They didn't get their health benefits. We felt lucky. 29 years and 3 months worth of pormises and the sacrifices to get them should be worth something.

I HAVE ONLY PURCHASED GM CARS (27 VEHICLES) OVER THE LAST 36 YEARS BUT THAT IS GOING TO CHANGE....I HAVE HAD IT WITH THESE CORRUPT UAW THUGS! THEY HAVE NO SOLUTIONS TO THE PROBLEMS THEY HELPED CREATE AND THEIR MANAGEMENT IS A JOKE!

Brian, you are confused. You shouldn't talk about pensions until you learn about them. Do you even know if the accrued pension obligations are funded? No. You do not. Based on this interview, it doesn't even appear as though you even know what that means. You are continually confusing accrued obligations with future obligations or you at least appear to be. At best, you are conducting these interviews aimlessly without a clear understanding of what you are saying. At worst, you are purposely misleading people about the financial condition of the pension plans. Which is it?

Did anyone here mention the UAW's multi-million dollar education center (golf course) that is losing money every year? The original intent of unions many, many years ago was great - protect the workers. But now these Union heads have taken things way too far and more worried about their own job security, pay, perks, etc. than they are about keeping their companies in business to keep the workers employed. I believe the unions are also at fault for the Big 3 failure in continuing to demand more. I have no problem with pensions, in fact I support them, but the amounts should be in question. Anyway, back to my original point...what the hell is a Union doing with a multi-million dollar golf course (and one that has lost money consistently for the last few years).

I was a supervisor for eight years in a Ford plant that was closed down. The UAW pension plan is another example of how the UAW has destroyed the auto industries competiveness. The argument that the UAW president has made about making all the concessions that they can is just wrong. There are plenty of ways that the union could work with the auto makers that would make them much more competitive with the transplants. The work rules that the union imposes on the auto companies destroys their ability to be competitive. The UAW controlled plants are not allowed to hire outside companies to perform services that could be done better and cheaper than using UAW workers. Jobs are given out based on seniority instead of ability. Management has very little ability to fire employees that can not perform or even come to work. The UAW plants have the worse absenteeism than other plants. There many examples of the rules that makes the union plants so much more inefficient than the transplanted foreign manufactures. The transplants do not have to deal with these issues and that is why they can compete so well against GM, Ford and Chrysler on American soil. It is not like these companies are manufacturing their vehicles in other countries. The transplants have to deal with the same government regulations, global economy including job market that every other manufacture deals with, but they do not have to deal with the UAW. The UAW does not want to give up anything as proven by their actions. The companies that they are destroying should be forced into a bankruptcy to release them from the yoke of the UAW. Since the UAW will not negotiate in good faith, bankruptcy controlled by a federal judge is the only way for the American car industry to survive.

Remove "early retirement" options and do not allow retirement with full pension until age 60 with at least 10 years of service. This will reduce the number of people where the company pays more years of pension than the employee worked for the company.

The pensions were contracted and agreed to....but faced with the very real prospect of putting the underlying company out of business they should be put on the table.

UAW pension is a part of the workers compensation package(contract).They will do the right thing. I must have missed the call to limit the compensation of bank CEO's and wall street fat cats who created this mess..

I am sick and tired of hearing that taxpayers "must" bail out union auto workers and retirees "or else". Do you folks not have any idea where government money comes from? It doesn't grow on trees, it's taken from individuals, by force by the government in the form of income taxes. Yes, it looks like you are in a bad situation. Your union strong armed so much out of the auto companies that the companies can no longer survive. Now you don't give a damn what happens to anybody else as long as you get what you want. The money given out already had to be borrowed from China, it will have to be repaid on the backs of the taxpayers. I understand you aren't happy about losing your bloated benefits packages, but you are NOT more important than everyone else. Taxpayers did not make any agreement with you, why shoud we will be the ones to suffer loss of our income, retirement, and medical care because YOU killed YOUR source of income by getting so greedy? You are not better than the rest of us, and frankly you are acting like a bunch of greedy pigs, you insist you should have yours even if it takes food off of other peoples tables. Even seeing that the comapnies just do not have the money and are begging for more from the taxpayers you are so incredibly greedy that you refuse to even negotiate.

BLAH BLAH BLAH. GM and Chrysler are failures. Period. Let the creditors force them into bankruptcy and divide up the residual between the creditors. The survivors get bigger, the failures fall by the wayside. The shareholders, workers, and pensioners all bet on the wrong horse. It sucks to be them. Life goes on without them.

If the UAW pensions must come down. Let us consider what people would say if the US had to cancel the SSA program because it couldn't afford it anymore ? Which is closer to the truth. Social Security again was perhaps a band-aid solution that was trying to make up for humanities inhumanity to humanity. I'd say you can't have a functional economic foundation that's not build on a solid foundation promoting education first. Greenspan said this in the late 90's - that if the US doesn't focus on education first, we're looking at a jobs nightmare not so far down the road. And here we are. People forget, hey, if you aren't selling cars, you won't have a job for long. Sure people won't HELOC their homes up to get a new car, in part because they now pay ON HELOC's against their homes prior inflated value... So, everyone who HELOC'd is facing 20, 30, 40, 50k + loans they took off their homes as their property value went off the charts... Not unlike oil feeding itself to 150. People will start buying cars when they have their home debt settled - and as it stands - most everyone was caught borrowing off of a home price that just wasn't realistic. If the US can't manufacture manufacturing jobs - sheesh, even the Mexican's will stop coming. I'd say any Mexican citizen entering the US, if you said 'here ya go, full citizenship, just sign here that you'll be helping to pay for the 7 trillion to funds like TARP - and well - that or join the military which is it ? ' outofspa

Enron should have been a red flag as to what kind of pensions and retirements people can expect. It doesn't take long to go tracking the river of debt in the US Social Security Administration to find yet another house of cards. Don't get me wrong, I'm not religious, and I find most religion to be politics in disguise- and disgust to favor a potential typo there. But it seems capitalism without spirituality brings about an unbalance and potential exploit to the entire system. Some might argue the automobile split the extended family model, or air travel. Either way - the extended family model is not so prevalent I'd say - and we shove the parents off to the home, and the kids we shove debt onto like they aren't going to be servants paying off today's lavish spendings. I see only one path that this nation state model could work before nationalism evolves to globalism - which it is... and that is establishing manufacturing jobs potential - and or services, I don't think the US would be choice #1 for financial services anymore heh... Seems energy resources is always #1 - no heat, you die, it's that simple, and if old enough, no electricity for air conditioning in the summer these days- you die. Once you get past climate, it's just gravity issues with cars etc... I'm all pro electric, but not if it comes off a coal fired grid. Seems all in all ? if I had to sum up what I anticipate has happened in the last 15 + years ? uh oh, out of space here. 1500 char limit rea