GM: Too Much OPEB & VEBA, Not Enough CTS.

What's wrong with you people why should we help people that bought houses that they can't paid for but we did !!!!!! Why give banks money while they give credit cards to people that can't paid them WHY help anybody????? People are so jealous of auto workers check out many other workers who make much more than auto workers, mailman police,state workers and the list goes on and on. Why not bitch about their pensions they get a hell of alot of money but yet no one says one thing about them why???? It's the media who puts everything on the news and paper about auto workers WHY?????? Everyone can think on their own if they choice too, but they don't, if we don't help Gm we will loose 2 million jobs and then we can pay 200-250 billion for people that need help WOW that sounds smart doesn't it!!!!!! Let them go under we then can all buy foreign cars maybe those foreign countries can help us and pay for all the unemploy. Don't see that happening maybe they can help pay social security don't see that happening. Maybe they can take our country over I do see that happening !!!!!!!! Wake up people!!!!!!!!

First of all, the cars GM built now far out way the imports and the cars they built in the past. 2nd its not the current business that is killing the big 3 but the past business. Gm is doing the right things, they have more fuel efficent cars than any other car maker but they are paying for union deals from the late 70s. No one thought people would live as long or GM would lose market share to the imports but they did. Its not greed of today that is doing them in but the greed of yesterday. Gm signed that huge deal with the UAW to have them take over the pension fund from GM in 2010. Unlike the other 2 GM is only asking for help to bridge to 2010 when the savings come to play and GM saves 15 billion a year from not having to fund the pensions anymore. So GM does have a plan but they need help to get there and when the banks wont loan anyone money to buy the cars what are the big 3 suspose to do. Ask for help. After all the banks created this mess and I dont see people bashing them and their execs get more bonuses than any other business. The reason is all most of you see in the auto industry is a greedy lazy auto worker. Jealousy will get you nowhere

I get so fed up with how the UAW thinks it supports the "WORKING CLASS". Well, guess what; you only represent a small portion of the working class so get over yourselves. You have wrecked the auto industry with union demands. That's right, its wrecked and you did it along with the stupid designs that the companies have push on the public for so long. If the UAW was so concerned, it should have worked with the company as to what designs should have come much sooner. The unions were worried only about its selfish greet and didn't look at the bigger picture, the world market. Both the companies and the UAW should be ashamed that it has come down to begging the government for handouts. I pity all the companies that are connected to the auto industry because you have taken them down this path too. Shame shame shame on you. I am so disappointed in the 3 big auto companies and the UAW. Hopefully there will be a day of reckoning where the trash vehicles, the trash thinking and trash greed will cull its way out of American history.

Yeah

I am in middle management for a company that manufactures and supplies component parts to the big three. By reading papers and talking to people I think that the number one problem that people have with the big three is their prejudice against the unions! Look, the big three line workers are some of the highest paid factory workers in the business. What are these overpaid workers making? Base pay is in the 50K range. Incomes of 24-28 dollars an hour will get you in the 50K range. I would argue that 50K is just getting a foot into middle class America. As a fellow manufacturer I have to say there is more to labor work than this cave man caricature that's paint. The floor workers and middle managers and department heads are the ones who are really running the plants, and I would go as far to say it's more the floor workers. The floor workers are the real experts! I could speak at great lengths on what great things that have been accomplished by these floor workers. They are the ones making lines more productive, higher quality, cutting cost. Why is it so outrageous in America for the top of the food chain factory worker to make 50K? People say don't raise taxes on people making 250k and up because that's punishing success, but in the same breathe they are against the top paid factory workers who are making in the 50K range. Isn't that punishing the successful factory worker? I know this business well, and if the big three's line workers wage went from 50k to 40k the Corp. suppliers would use that as the industry standard for reducing their workers wages. I saw it happen when Dana went under. So if you’re a factory worker making 20K look out! If you read this article you seen that wages aren't the big cost! It is the retirees! They are the bulk of the union workers wage package, not the union workers salary! So instead of knocking these fat cats making 50k on the shop floor shouldn't we really be against these retirees? Is it wrong for grandma and grandpa to have a pension and health care benefits? The big three is on the frontlines of a HUGE American issue. We have an increasingly higher ageing population. What do you do with them? In past years a pension and health care for retirees was common. The big three seem to be the last of them that do. So we let GM go bankrupt and eliminate the bulk of wasted spending, which is grandmas and grandpa's health care and pensions. My plants workers have given up wages and benefits to "stay competitive". Where did that savings go? It went to bonuses at the Corp. level, not to managers in the plant. Managers in the plant have had pay freezes for year, so we are in the same boat as the laborers. Corp. America has been sucking the money from working class America for years and years now. It's ironic to hear the working class so strongly oppose a well-paid working class. As working class wages and benefits continue to fall Corp. wages and benefits continue rise at unbelievable rates. I am not a union worker, but I do support unions! They seem to be the last ones in this country are sticking up for the working class! I say give them a loan. They say 3 million plus jobs lost, but I think it would be worse. These workers wages keep open groceries stores, gas stations, restaurants, shopping centers, hospitals, and schools. Not to mention what would happen to the market if GM's financial side went under. I think GM going under will make this sub-prime loan crisis look like good time.

11/10/08 First you have to why GM is dying. This goes back before 1985 when GM decided to stop making comfortable deluxe automobiles. It started with the Oldsmobile line of cars. I have been a consistent owner of GM vehicles since 1948 .I had been a salesman on the road for over thirty years. The delta 88 royale oldsmobile was my car. The upholstery was thick and comofortable.1985 was voted the most popular family car. In 1988, I went to trade my 1985 car. The seats and backs were hard and uncomfortable. I researched and found out that GM made this change to their line in 1986! . I complained to the salesman. I walked out. And finally settled ono a Honda Accord. Every year from then on I went back to see if Oldsmobile had changed. It didn't ! All Oldsmobiles had been comfortable. In fact a 1979 Omega Brougham with bucket seats was comfortable. This disease spread to Buick. I looked at Buick Roadmaster which I owned years back. Their seats and back were also lousy. Finally GM got rid of Oldsmobile( they had destroyed it themselves) In 1993 we bouoght a 1992 Sedan Deville Cadillac program car. It was very comfortable. A few years ago we bought three more 1993's. (SAME COMFORT AS 1992). A few months ago, wwe traded the 1992 with 140,000 miles for a 2007 Lincoln Towncar. It has bench seats and is the closest thing to the old cadillacs.( The new Cadillacs don't have bench seats. They hve configured bucket seats that are uncomfortable. GM doesn't believe in bench seats. Their upholstery is too hard. Not thick enough . Doesn't support your back. I suggest they get new bosses to run their company with the customer in mind. I have been writing them and calliog them for over 25 years to no avail. THE ONLY WAY FOR GM TO SURVIVE IS TO CHANGE THE WAY THEY MAKE THEIR CARS. TO MAKE THEM WITH PADDING IN THE UPHOLSTERY AS THEY USED TO BEFORE 1985! THIS WAS THE STYLE THAT CATERED TO AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS FROM THE 1940'S THRU THE 1980'S. FOURTY YEARS!! THERE IS ENOUGH CARS MADE WITH HARD BACKS AND SEATS NOW WITHOUT GM!! THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THAT GM WILL SURIVIVE WITH OR WITHOUT A LOAN.

There has been some references in recent responses about auto workers not sacrificing enough themselves. Salaried Ford retirees buy their own Health Care Insurance, including medical, visual, dental and drug coverage.....Life Insurance coverage has been capped at a reasonable amount to pay funeral expenses. Regarding pensions: 401k savings were funded mostly by employees and any previous matching funds have been recently eliminated for current salaried employees altogether...'Defining' pensions were and are employee 'contributing' and are covered under the Govt.'s Pension Benefit Corporation laws, available to most large US corporations. I can not speak to UAW hourly retirees because I am not familiar with their situation. I am concerned, however, with the impact on the vast number of people whose jobs (rubber, steel, plastics, and many other industries in the USA)would be at risk should any of the Big Three go belly up..... I believe I read once that one in 6 workers in the United States are dependant on The Auto Industry....Also, it's the largest segment of the Country's mannufacturing ability....I certainly hope the Country does not ever have to seek our Auto Industry's help, as it did in the 2nd World War, to build Sherman tanks, Jeeps, LSD's etc.....Somehow I don't think Honda, Toyota, Nissan or even Germany's Mercedes would relish providing their maufacturing skills to defend our Country! Let's think about it carefully before we abandon our Auto Industry!

Letting the car companies go bankrupt might be a blessing in disguise. Since they forced the situation with greed and bad decision making like the banking businesses, did let them go under. Just say no to greed. Where is Nacy Regan? What about the 2.5 million jobs? Well, let the soon-to-be auto workers either get new jobs as rickeshaw drivers or convert the plants into manufacturers of windmill generators and solar panels. The new green industries can be made from the old. This is where the blessing in disguise comes from. No new lones/grants to the automakers...only money to upgrade their factories to green energy products. Hopefully the new convertaprop windmills will appear in the windgenerator catalogs and showrooms soon.

The union needs to make serious concessions before GM gets any money. Whether the money from the government is a grant or loan. Spending good money after bad for conditions that will not make the automakers any more competitive will only prolong the eventual demise of the automakers. I can't see how any company and union could be making a good decision to pay workers 140K plus to put windshield wipers on a car when I'm making 55k to be a software engineer. There has to be parity somewhere. If the automakers want only the UAW member to be their only customers then they should just continue doing business as usual without any government help. I cannnot understand why I need to be subsidizing people who are making rediculous wages.

Why do we really need unions in the 21st century? They served a purpose when the country was an emerging industrial power, but now they are mismanaged and more of a drag on both their members and business than they help. Where do these bailouts end? It is hard to see a company that employs over 2 million people go down but where do you draw the line? Government cannot do this. It's socialism in it's purist form. It's unfortunate to see happen but businesses fail. The American auto industry has had years to become competitive with foreign makers. Their short sighted decisions has put them in the spot they're in and now they want the government to bail them out? I say no way. Let them file bankruptcy, restructure and they better get their act together if they want to stay in the auto making industry.

No bailout for me I guess I picked to work at the the wrong profession. How can our government pick and choose which union workers to save and which ones to let go? After more than 30 years of loyal work Iam out of work because my company went BK. Before going BK they trimmed or terminated retirement and medical benefits, but no bailout for me. Before any company is given a bailout package they need to force the labor unions to have some skin in the game and take a hit also, Unions don't generate any cash yet they still receive money from company?

Why should I pay higher taxes (in part) to subsidize US automakers so that their employees can pay less than I have ever paid for retirement and health care?

please no more favors, my pocket book is empty. 700 billion and now 100 billion stimulus 50 more billion for big auto, where is going to stop and how do we pay for it ? maybe if we would drill and buy some of are own oil we could afford some of this.

again many high finance and high brow words to describe poor management and top leadership's 'some for you but much for me' culture. line workers get 50K per year while upper management (aka leadership) gets 3 to 100 times that for leading down dark rat holes. Leadership still making decisions on small nitch vehicles while forgetting to look 4 to 5 years out regarding cost efficient functionality of vehiles. Change the style and sheetmetal to get wow factor but forget to make the mechanicals efficient. Unions also have 'some for you and much for me' culture. take money paid to leadership that is over 2 times line worker pay and put that into low rish investments to fund a everyone gets the same health and retirement benefits and see what that does to post employment benefits costs. not socialism but what is the real value of high multiple salary for certain staff. knowledge workers and hands on production people make the product and in the case of many industries do not need high multiple paid leadership people to make decisions. The auto industry and union management of pension and health care is a big dark hole that is going to ask for gov bailout within 3 years. Just look at administrative cost (salary to the 'much for me' people running the plan) also the cost of maintaining the inverted salary structure for the leadership. steering by the wake (navy term) is leadership style of auto execs. and look at how much spent on getting friendship with law makers for goodies. a proof of concept is the total cost of design and development of some of the cutting edge auto companies (hybrid or electric) and factor that up by what major size company could achieve via efficiency and compare that to salary of the new startup leadership. yes japan's car makers are3 having a hard time also. system cause and effect leads to too many designs, lack of family of parts commonality, too many options and real lack of what is the net asset return on capital spent on all the different models and options. Porsche has had much the same sheetmetal for over 20 years and just works on incremental changes to improve functionality and cost of production and they do good job and make some money too. my late 90's honda gets 38mpg so what new functionality has been added to big 3 and big 3 from Japan? Cost of management is all too much (like fireman add where they making laws... who want clean water all in favor... wow 300 pages to say we want clean water) again much like a pro football team with a dandy fine high paid quarterback and low paid linemen. so bro who blocking for you. leadership by wondering around and asking workers seems to be the best and entities who do that survive without all the political favors.

Do I hear the big 3 auto maker execs foregoing huge incentive packages, big cuts in pay and benefits to save their sinking ship? These corporations who are coming to the govt with their hands out have NOT sacraficed to the bone. If the major auto makers want taxpayer funds, let the taxpayers make the rules. Worst yet, there is no PUNITIVE MEASURES taking place on the banking bailout. All offenders should be fired AND prosecuted. If it were up to me, they would get ZERO money for a bailout since UAW employees make twice what my 30-year teamster husband earns!

The govrnment should not bail out the big three. They should be allowed to file bankruptcy and restructure their organizations including the decertification of the UAW which is the crux of the problem. Unfortunatley, during the heydays, GM caved in to union demands rather that fight. Now, union largesse is burying them with post employment benefits costs. I certainly do not want taxpayer money to go to perpetuate this union largesse. This problem needs to be addressed for the long term in order for the Big 3 to survive. Get rid of the union.

A few years ago the actuaries said "GM's unfunded pension liability is a black hole" and I knew then with certainty that I was hearing about the end of GM as we know it. It's impossible for GM to make it unless the UAW learns how to add and substract, multiply and divide. With each passing day the unthinkable becomes a certainty and $70 per hour to bolt wheels on a car becomes a business school joke.